Yes!

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Um...

Look, I appreciate your identity and the work that you've done to realize it.

But can I mention that it makes me, as a neurotypical heterosexual cisgendered white female, a little uncomfortable to watch you co-opt the feminist narrative?

I mean, not to be an ass about it. But being a dragon is still considered nonthreatening in our society. I mean, it's considered (emphasis on considered-by-mundanes) a hobby. Something weird you do on the internet. It's not really the same struggle as being a woman--there just aren't enough otherkin to have had the same kind of cultural impact.

I just... maybe if you used a different word than paraphrased. Because you're not actually paraphrasing, you're re-appropriating, which is... less sketchy if properly labeled, I suppose.

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I echo. Bax, I think you and Mrs. Robinson are both awesome, but Aris is totally right - this skirts into unpleasantly privilege-blind territory.

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Dude, I am all for the deviants sticking it to the man. But I realize that the weird looks I get for being polyamorous or part of a fetish scene or dressing in drag are totally separate from what I go through being a woman. I totally want everyone to be free to be themselves in public without having to deal with censure. But that's a different fight from the right of women to control their own reproductive systems, which I'm afraid is a little more pressing on my mind. (Also: racial angles, which I cannot touch on right now because I do not want to screw up that particular argument, but while we're being feminist let's also not be racist, woot woot.)

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Yes, I totally agree with you. I think that the framing of discourse that implies that working against racism is mutually exclusive with working against sexism is a big part of the problem - that's what I meant by "balkanizing us." The scare quotes around "deviants" are there because the same toxic discourse pretty much defines being female or nonwhite as deviance.

These large social problems have large and difficult overlaps.

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What Krinn said.

I would just add that normalizing and legitimizing "deviance" (complete with scare quotes as above) is a necessary but not sufficient step in fixing the larger institutional problems that oppressed groups face.

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See below.

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"Paraphrased" was a poor word choice.

What I hear you say is that it's disrespectful to draw a direct comparison between a lifestyle that's invisible on the surface and a life that struggles with these issues whether she wants to or not. I should perhaps have been more clear than I was trying to draw my own ideas in similar themes, not draw a parallel.

I mean no disrespect toward feminists and females in general, who have been struggling for respect for a long, long time. The point that I was trying to make with the quoted section is not unique to either feminists or Otherkin, which is the main reason I found it worth mentioning; I could have replaced the original with "gay" or "transgendered" or any of a dozen racial identifiers and it would still carry the same impact. Again, "I'm repeating it because it resonates with a key quality of my own identity politics lately."

Thanks for speaking up, and I hope I can either address or learn from any remaining concerns.

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So what I meant to say last night at 2 AM was:

" 'Paraphrased' was a poor word choice. I apologize for it, and I've fixed it.

"What I hear you say, etc. ...

"... Thanks for speaking up. Did that address your objection? I hope I can, etc."

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Quickly: That did help a lot; thank you. More, though, that specific quote has a lot of baggage for me, due to my own feminist struggles, and I think that you're using it to try and talk about things it only tangentially addresses. Also, I would have been way more comfortable if you'd just quoted it and said, "I think this applies to draconity as such and such" because I keep seeing it in its original context and trying to apply Otherkin politics to the politics it was addressing, and it just makes me feel appropriated.

I can write more on this when I get home from work tonight.

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Okay. I think the big thing here is that you're using a quote and a narrative here which is specifically about fighting oppression, and only focusing on the parts about personal expression and living how you want to live as a way of being the change you want to see in the world. The latter is a noble sentiment and one I fully agree with, but for me the quote is inextricable from the context it comes from.

Also:

Muriel Rukeyser once said, long ago, that if one dragon told the truth about her life, the world would split open. Modern draconity began with the deep insight that the personal is political -- that every act a dragon performs as a free dragon has the power to transform the culture

... is factually incorrect on the first point, and I would wager that it's factually incorrect on the second. Muriel Rukeyser said nothing about dragons, and I'm pretty sure modern draconity began with people discovering they were dragons and meeting up on the internet to discuss how this made them feel.

So in just changing the words around in the quote, you're making it sound like Otherkin are in a struggle to get rights and respect and equal pay for equal work, which... I really don't think you're trying to claim. I don't want to get into a "who has less respect" fight, but Otherkin really are an invisible minority. Since on the surface you're a cisgendered white male--I've met you!--your co-option of my narrative hurts, man.

I guess it's like, okay is, "Dude, this thing from the feminist movement made me really think about being Otherkin and how my identity shapes the world," but bad is "Dude, I just saw this quote and Otherkin are just like feminists." I, erm. Yeah. You're not, I'm sorry; you have struggles that I will probably never go through and you have my sympathy and support, but you're not going through my struggles, either, and please be careful drawing analogies.

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Thank you.

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The point you make with this post is a truth that is further reaching than the scope you placed it in. It's exactly why I started writing my notes on the why and how I've built my lil' company.

Overall, it's a proven practice to lead by example.

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The thing that sticks in my head is that it's not enough to merely think about things -- but how one lives life is an expression of who one is.

I see there being a distinction between thought and action -- a distinction between what one says and what one does. A concrete example of this distinction might be the difference between academia and the "real world" -- but it might just be because I'm stuck somewhere between both, for the time being.

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Actually, the interesting thing is that there's a collection of thoughts here that can all be expanded upon. Some about identity and where it comes from -- and I'm rather tempted to reply to them all. That's more fitted to a blog entry, though.

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stepping into it a bit, your intent is seen however
difference by choice/without choice, identity being shackled to attributes
myself privileged that I may choose, having the unpalatable option to conform
many living with attributes others have selected for discrimination
seeing with open mind/eyes yet I am unable to walk in step with their life
requires the others trust that I may truly see someone as themselves

commonality everyone is much more than they seem, identity as expressing self
behind the masks, behind the attributes, behind the baggage carried about
parsing out what each is beyond what each should be, unbounded potentials

stomping potential landmines we begin, please choose to continue
wishing all such mindfields gone, change/discuss/evolve thoughts

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At first, everyone simply tried to get over the fact that they were saying these words: "I am a dragon". And the whole enterprise became mired in people attempting to get over the reality shock of thinking something so detached from conventional thinking.

As a result, it's all kind of trite now, in a certain way. A little juvenile in execution, if not underline premise. There have been a number of would-be and self-styled saviors who have come to tell everyone how they're going to "evolve" draconity, or otherkin, or whatever, make it better, bigger, badder, but they've really brought nothing new to the table in most cases outside of trying to form cliques and keep out anyone they think isn't cool enough.

But maybe that's par for the course, given how young this idea is. In time, by the time it genuinely develops, it may be called something entirely different. Be conceptualized as something different. But that's evolution for you. People always forget that, because they are fundamentally self-centered beings (I say this in the sense of sentient beings having to focus on the self in order to differentiate it from everything else.) They forget that they are always a transitional form of themselves, moving between one order of life and another.

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Hi there! Thanks for speaking up. You're welcome to comment anonymously, but I'd love to know who I'm speaking with when someone contributes substantive ideas to the discussion.

IMHO, to the extent that the idea of draconity/Otherkin/therianthropy seems juvenile, it's because it's cast as a rejection of body identity. A mature therianthropy embraces and integrates both the therion and the anthropos.

Still, it's difficult to imagine a world where that wouldn't be a reality shock. Even as an inclusive, mature movement, it's always going to attract an adolescent crowd. Draconity's challenge will always be making sure there's more depth to explore beyond that surface trangression, without trying to "evolve" its essential nature.

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